starwind 15 sailboat

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Crazy first time out on my sailboat today

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So where do I begin? I bought a 83 Starwind 19 early in September. It was cheap and was a single owner boat. The PO died last year and the boat had been sitting for a while. I replace the winch, bow stop, and put better tires on the trailer. I step the mast in my driveway and see 2 of the shrouds need replacing and the forstay while I'm at it because that's an important one. I get my new rigging back and run out of time with my friend trying to get it in and have to return home without getting it in. (I've always wanted to sail, read some books, done some help out sailing cruises but nothing of substance) Fast forward to today. I have another friend that has sailing experience (good for me) and the weather is great so I'm up for get this boat wet today. He asks if I mind if his wife, friend, friends wife and baby come along because they are in town for a few days and arrived today. Sure no problem. So it's 5 adults and a baby. After trailering it to the water, setting up rigging, outboard, etc, I finally get it in the water. I motor out to the open lake and we raise the main. I'm ecstatic, the boat is moving along and everyone is enjoying the view and the late afternoon sun is great. We're probably out about a half hour and I'm loving it! Then all hell breaks loose. My friend's wife says, hey is that water normal inside? I look in the companionway and the water is 6 inches deep. Yikes. Looks like it's rising and I don't have a bilge pump. After dropping the main, we fire up the outboard and make sure everyone has a life jacket. (Worst feeling ever, the water is filling and I'm afraid the boat may end up totally going down.) We get it back to the boat ramp and I get the trailer in quickly, pull the boat and it's crushing the trailer with weight and breaks the winch. It is hanging on the back of the trailer emptying water out of the aft scuppers. Pouring out. I had brought a second winch with me, turns out a great idea. We get it back on the trailer and take down the rigging. I tow it home and begin the inspection underneath. Nothing is leaking. The cabin has 8 - 10 inches of water in it after driving it home. I don't understand where the water came in so fast? It's the entire hull compromised? Ugh. I spent 2 hours with a shop vac getting the water out. I estimated from all the dumping out, probably 150 gallons of water. Here are some pictures because everyone loves pictures. I didn't get the ones that count of the water inside, I was too concerned getting water out instead of taking pictures. Any thoughts on what could have happened? I've owned power boats for the last 10 years, and also have a tritoon I bought new 2 years ago. Thanks!  

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MikePNJ said: . Any thoughts on what could have happened? ! Click to expand...

Did you replace the hoses from the cockpit drains to the through hulls and double clamp them. Could be something simple like old hoses and clamps needed replacing or something very common such as forgetting to put the bilge drain plug in place. If the scupper float on the cockpit drain failed the cabin would not fill up first as the water would be bubbling up through the cockpit drains around your feet unless the hoses had failed. If the centerboard trunk failed catastrophically then you usually would have had a flood of water pouring out of the bottom of the boat around the centerboard when you put it on the trailer.  

The entirety of the fiberglass is not compromised. You have just so many hull penetrations and one of them is leaking. It’s either at the penetration itself or, if a hose is attached, anywhere along it’s length. Does your vessel have a bilge drain plug? Was it installed, did it come loose?  

So the water is pouring out of the drains that lead out above the waterline. The boat is tilted back not fully on the trailer and the water was so high it was draining from the cockpit area. I was seated working the tiller and no water was inside near me on the floor but down below in the cabin the water was filling. I didn't see any water even dripping out anywhere after my 30 minute drive home. It was dark outside and I went in and had a quick dinner. No water in my driveway, on the road or anywhere. The boat had about 150 gallons of water inside it at this point. I saw small patches of darker wet on the hull but nothing was dripping or seeping water. I figured it should be coming out somewhere but nothing. There were some lake weed blooms inside not just straight water but I don't know if that was from the area that was sealed with plywood where the above seating is covering or entered from a hole. I never dropped the keel. It has a line just before the companionway entrance.  

I don't know if there is a bilge drain plug, I'll have to check that out. There are hoses inside that lead to above the water line to let water out through a bilge pump and for the sink drain. I'll need to get in and look at it later.  

Do you have any pics of how the centreboard trunk penetration is sealed from the interior of the boat? I am wondering if its possible the boat was overloaded/over trimmed to the point the centre board penetration was submerged. I guess you figured this out, but bring a bilge pump and bailing can. Your boat is under 20 feet, so it should have a capacity plate saying the total number of persons allowed on board. Its worth checking.  

Arcb said: Do you have any pics of how the centreboard trunk penetration is sealed from the interior of the boat? I am wondering if its possible the boat was overloaded/over trimmed to the point the centre board penetration was submerged. Click to expand...

If I remember correctly, the centerboard is sealed from the cabin, except possibly where its pivot pin is mounted in the centerboard 'pocket'. The line for controlling the centerboard, the pennant, runs through a hose from the cockpit sole to the below-waterline centerboard pocket. The sink drain hose T's into that hose. I think that connection is close to the waterline. Try checking that.  

Also, my manual bilge pump was located in the cabin, under that removable center panel of the v-berth. Not real convenient for single-handing.  

hard way to learn but would say honestly you were lucky given your cavalier approach to handling an unfamiliar boat. Rule 1: know your boat! None of us has any business taking a day party out until we know the basic condition of boat systems plumbing through hulls etc etc. Since things got wet empty out the wet gear clean her all up and get on your hands and knees with a flashlight and check things out. Dont be in a hurry..ask yourself what is That thing this gizmo that wire this hose then check the valves. Take a close look at hose couplings the sink drain (an under appreciated threat!) Jot down any problems. Then do a gear inventory count life preservers flares yadayada. Then prep yourself for a test launch with an experienced friend no guests crowds or babies! Ease the boat in and check all thruhulls drains etc secure the boat away from ramp and let her sit. Check all fittings and bilge again. When you are very sure the boat is remaining dry drop the centerboard 1/3 down and see if any seepage occurs anywhere. If all is well take her for a short run and if all is still well haul sail and take a short sail Return to dock and check everything again especially inside along gunnels, thru hulls (yes again!) If all is dry you did not find a leak or obvious flaw by being this thorough, you have a mystery to solve : what happened Last time! Until that issue is resolved and the boat secured you have no business taking anyone out in your boat. I strongly suggest you avoid being in a hurry to do anything on a boat practice foresight and due diligence always. Thereafter have fun but read Chapman's, Sailing Illustrated and at least three other good general sailing guides this winter until you realize just how truly lucky you were on that first trip. Best of luck with your boat and what can be a wonderful sport if aporoached responsibly. Fair Winds Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk  

oysterman23 said: test launch...Ease the boat in and check all thruhulls drains etc secure the boat away from ramp and let her sit. Check all fittings and bilge again. When you are very sure the boat is remaining dry drop the centerboard 1/3 down and see if any seepage occurs anywhere. If all is well take her for a short run and if all is still well haul sail and take a short sail Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. I do agree, I wasn't planning a party cruise on the boat. The weather was scheduled to be sunny, warm with light winds. I live in NJ and it's November. I wanted to get the boat in the water once and see what was what. I was happy my friend was available so I could get it out. Last minute he asks if I mind if his 3 friends come along because they are in town for only a few days from England. I preferred not going solo so I agree if they didn't mind and knew it was the first time out on the boat. His friend also has sailing experience. The lake is a tiny lake with nobody out on it. I came prepared with tools, extra winch, extra tires, etc. I wouldn't say I just willy nilly decided to take the boat out. I had all proper safely equipment on board, just wish I had a bilge pump with me. Do I wish I did it different, sure but I was trying to get the boat in the water before having to wait another 5 months. I replaced 3 stays before taking it out and went over other aspects of the boat. It's my first sailboat but I'm not unfamiliar with boats. The only below water line hole is the one for the sink drain that comes to a valve. No water leaked out of the hull or that hole when it was sitting on the trailer with 8 inches of water in it. I will plug it anyway because I don't want any issues for something that doesn't need to be on the boat. Here are some photos of the centerboard and bilge area and hoses that contain the line to raise and lower the centerboard. I'm going to replace them and seal the hose. Also looking to see if the fiberglass areas around the centerboard could be an issue a wouldn't know until I replace the other hoses and test it wet again.  

MikePNJ said: Here are some photos of the centerboard and bilge area and hoses that contain the line to raise and lower the centerboard. I'm going to replace them and seal the hose. Also looking to see if the fiberglass areas around the centerboard could be an issue a wouldn't know until I replace the other hoses and test it wet again. Click to expand...

The good news is that a leak that bad should be easy to find. I had one that was would only show up when sailing and usually heeled over. After driving me crazy for over a year, when crawling around in the back of the boat checking the rudder cables, I found a crack in the bottom of the bilge pump hose as it made a sharp turn into the thru hull. Seems it only leaked water when the thru hull went under water at speed.  

The baby was wearing a PFD. She had it on before boarding the boat. I have 2 children of my own. In NJ it's required for 13 years old and under to wear it. I've owned boats for the past 12 years, have a slip I rent every year, I live 50 feet from the largest lake in NJ. (This year is a draw down year so that lake wasn't usable.) I took it to a tiny man made lake nearby. I don't know why everyone is thinking the baby wasnt wearing a PFD. I had jackets for everyone on board also.  

I took both my kids sailing as babies. My youngest is 4 and a half months and she has done lots of protected water sailing. This is the baby lifejacket I use. Rated 9lbs and up. https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5013-812/Baby-PFD  

Arcb said: I took both my kids sailing as babies. My youngest is 4 and a half months and she has done lots of protected water sailing. This is the baby lifejacket I use. Rated 9lbs and up. Click to expand...

Water pressure is an amazing thing. When submerged, water ingress was being pushed in, under pressure. When you hauled, it was just gravity draining it out, so I wouldn’t expect to find the leak that way. Could have been a small crack in a hose, leaking valve, loose clamp or even failed bedding on the thru hull. None would allow much water back out. The good news is you have a very limited number of places this could be occurring. I would update/upgrade them.  

Ok you don’t get it.....as evidenced by making excuses for what you did. You did something very unsafe. The CAPTAIN is the one who is responsible. Period Your decisions MUST always be made with safety in mind first. You failed to do that and were pressured by another person to take guests on an unproven to you boat you had never previously tested. You should have said no. So what is was a lake . so what it was calm. So what it was good weather You took out an untested boat you don’t know well with passengers and endangered everyone. Had someone gotten hurt or injured in this escapade who do you think would be held liable? YOU WOULD Thankfully nothing really happened. You get a second chance. If you don’t correct this poor judgement decision starting by owning it , you will repeat. The water is not forgiving, not prejudiced and should be respected. If not your life....than others. Sorry to be so blunt....b  

chef2sail said: Ok you don't get it.....as evidenced by making excuses for what you did. You did something very unsafe. The CAPTAIN is the one who is responsible. Period Your decisions MUST always be made with safety in mind first. You failed to do that and were pressured by another person to take guests on an unproven to you boat you had never previously tested. You should have said no. So what is was a lake . so what it was calm. So what it was good weather You took out an untested boat you don't know well with passengers and endangered everyone. Had someone gotten hurt or injured in this escapade who do you think would be held liable? YOU WOULD Thankfully nothing really happened. You get a second chance. If you don't correct this poor judgement decision starting by owning it , you will repeat. The water is not forgiving, not prejudiced and should be respected. If not your life....than others. Sorry to be so blunt....b Click to expand...

One additional item in the second pic in your post #12. That is a gate valve (and plastic!) and needs to be changed to a proper seacock.  

Thanks Jim, yeah that will be removed. No reason to drain a sink below the waterline. That's why we use Purell on board. No sink needed for quick bathroom usage.  

I really do not understand why many have the need to go off on topics like this. He asked for help on where the water was coming in. He obviously knew he should have checked the boat out better before he got in it, and certainly before a full complement of people were out on the lake. Then the holier than thou group jumps in and tells the guy who is on his first sailboat how a true "captain" would never make this mistake. It is kind of like going to church for the spiritual aspect and getting a sermon on politics. Recently saw a quote that has been attributed to many, but my favorite was Winnie the Pooh. "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience?....that comes from poor judgement". Give the guy as break. How many people here have not done some dumb ass stunt that has put ourselves or others at risk? Or do you lie to yourself about it?  

You don’t want to plug off the scuppers. Correct whatever is leaking. They are designed to drain the cockpit, if and when you get water aboard. It will happen. Most drain below the water line.  

I felt compelled to relate a story which originated the day of our first launch over 20 years ago. After splashing our boat in Midland, we motored and then sailed back to Honey Harbour where we would be keeping the boat. Before starting the 3 hour drive home, we went for a bite to eat. Before hitting the road, I suggested that we have one more quick peek at our new treasure. Removing the hatch boards, I immediately could see that the floor was awash. The OMC Saildrive motor has a drain plug which is opened for winterizing...the previous owner had not mentioned this. The plug was letting water in from the moment the boat was in the water but because the water was flowing into the channel to the bilge, we hadn't seen it. While we were eating, the water overflowed the bilge, at that time the boat did not have an automatic float switch. Had we not gone back to the ship for 'one last look', our boat would surely have flooded and sunk.  

The sink drain is a useless through hull hole IMO. In 1983 when the boat was new it might have been a good idea. I don't see the value in having a sink that expels water out through a possible area that could lead to water entering the boat unnecessarily. I have a small head on my other boat and we just use hand sanitizer to wash up with. I could keep the sink with a small waste water tank underneath also. No reason to release the gray water overboard. (Or under board in this case) Also plugging that hole will bypass the plastic valve and I can remove it and free up a few more cubic inches of space. Am I missing the value here? The back scuppers where I believe the water entered (I will be removing panels inside to access the drains and check it out later this week hopefully) also don't pose a lot of value. The PO must have used expandable drain plugs for this. They aren't threaded. I've had scuppers lead aft through the transom above the water line which makes tons of sense. That's why I didn't expect them to be facing under the stern. If you left the boat on a trailer I imagine those drains would let rain water out. I always keep my boats covered in and out of water. I may use drain plugs and make sure the holes in the cockpit run to the bilge. I also dont mind the bleach bottle idea as an option to bail it out. Additionally I'm going to replace the hose, the clamps and the line that controls the centerboard. I want to try and sort some of these issues before the winter. Next trip to the water will only be to check for water entering after I go through it again.  

It's your boat, but I think you're devaluing it by plugging those off. Most would want them and find the DIY approach as a yellow flag to other less identifiable oddities. Cockpit scuppers are supposed to allow a cockpit to drain overboard. It has to violate some best practice or code to block them off. A sink that doesn't drain calls into question why there is a sink installed at all. On many small sailboats, I see it filled with ice and storing beverages for the day sail. A drain would be nice. Captain's choice, but I would repair them correctly and you'd have little worry. The fact is, unless you grind back a 12 inch bevel, plug and re-fiberglass the hole, anything you do could also leak. p.s. I'm sure a bilge check will be on your list of things to do at every launch now. I do so every time I return to the boat, either at the slip or at anchor. It takes a second.  

Some thoughts on your plan if I understand it correctly. My 21 foot boat has neither a self draining cockpit nor a self draining sink. The boat has 0 through hulls. Not having a self draining sink is no big deal. The sink is removable and I just toss the contents over the side when required. Not having a self draining cockpit is a pain in the neck. It requires frequent bailing in anything but benign conditions. I have both a manual pump and a bleach bottle bailing can, we usually use the bleach bottle. Aside from being a pain in the neck on your boat, having a flooded cockpit would raise the centre of gravity on your boat as the cockpit is raised above the bottom of the hull. So raised centre of gravity plus free surface effect is going to impact your stability. My thoughts are, no big deal to plug the sink, but potentially problematic and even unsafe to plug your scuppers. Here is a pic of my non self draining cockpit after about 90 minutes of hard rain.  

As Minne hinted, a properly done plug is going to take much longer than a properly done in-kind repair/replacement. Those through-hulls are there for good reason. The scuppers are essential to safety (and required by ABYC standards). Water will get in your cockpit, even with a cover. And when the boat is in use, there are many ways that rainwater or seawater will get into the cockpit. It needs to drain out, or your boat will become dangerously out of balance. Having shifting ballast is dangerous - it always shifts to the low point of the boat, which is the opposite side from where you want it. Plugging your sink drain is similarly shortsighted. You'll need that sink for a lot more than washing hands. Suppose you do need to get into the bilge with Chlorox bottles or hand pumps to address a leak. Where is that water going to go? Are you really going to walk each cup of water out into the cockpit and throw it over the gunwale? You'll never keep up that way. You would put it in the sink. There is a lot of useful knowledge here. Take advantage of it. Many of us have different styles and levels of bluntness. If you have a know-it-all attitude, some here will throw that right back at you. After contributing here for 10-15-20 years, people sometimes get that way. That may not be the most effective, but it's human nature. That doesn't mean their points aren't right. I think you need to start listening more to the advice here. I'm not going to rant too much, but I do think taking that baby on an untested (and overloaded) boat was one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Right as soon as I started reading your first post, when I got to that part I was screaming, "Noooooo!!!!!" PS - You must add a bilge pump.  

TakeFive said: Plugging your sink drain is similarly shortsighted. You'll need that sink for a lot more than washing hands. Click to expand...

My 15 foot picnic boat has a sink/ice chest which drains thru-hull below the water line which keeps the melting ice from sloshing around and spilling out into the cockpit or bilge and is a very good design point even on a boat without a cabin and as others mentioned it can be a life saver on a boat with a cabin allowing you to bail or use a hand pump to purge water directly into it and out of the boat. Scuppers below the water line with a proper venturie cap can greatly speed draining water out of the cockpit and get your boat more quickly back in balance after it takes a wave, etc. And electric bilge pump only works if the battery is still functional which may not be the case if its foaming over from getting salt water in it while the scuppers will work constantly and at times better than many bilge pumps especially if you have any forward motion plus they will keep working even if you are incapacitated. Serious consideration should be given before defeating the safety features built into a boat. The root cause of this incident is more likely poor maintenance and prep and not poor design. That boat is a very well proven design with thousands out of the water.  

Nice boat, I always liked the starwinds, solid designs for lake/trailer sailors. It sounds to me that your cockpit scupper hosts or through hulls are almost certainly toast. On most trailer boats they are plastic thru hulls. Get a couple stainless steel ones, some 5200, a couple new bits of hose and clamps, done. The idea that your cockpit isn't going to get wet and it will be fine draining into the bilge is pretty absurd in my opinion (no offense) and frankly dangerous. Why would you have a large open surface draining *into* your boat. Boats are meant to keep water out. Just fix them correctly and then you don't have to worry about what ifs (what if it rains while I am out, what if my cover leaks on the trailer, what if my bilge pump breaks or gets clogged. Plugging the sink isn't my style since I would again just fix it if it was broken. How are you going to "plug" it? Literally a plug in the drain hose? Stuck in the thru hull? Still got a hole in the boat and no reason your plug won't fail like anything else. Best fix is a seacock you can close unless you need it. About $80 gets you a proper marelon seacok/thru hull one and wouldn't take more than a half hour to install. https://www.fisheriessupply.com/plumbing/valves-and-seacocks Good luck and happy sailing!  

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