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Schionning 38' motorsailer Catamaran:14kts on twin 75hp.

Discussion in ' Motorsailers ' started by rustybarge , Jun 5, 2014 .

rustybarge Cheetah 25' Powercat.

Hi All, Just thought I would post the latest offering from Schionning Catamarans, a 38' motor sailer with twin 75 hp diesels to give a 14kts cruise! What do you think? http://www.spiriteddesigns.com.au/crossover . Sail and Power The Spirited ‘CrossOver’ bridges the gap between sail and power. Now ‘motor-sailors’ are nothing new but optimizing the performance in both areas is where the challenge lies. Because this design is based on the highly successful Spirited 380 which has now become known for its outstanding sailing performance, the sailing performance of the ‘CrossOver’ is assured even though there has been design modification made to the aft part of the hulls, and the rig size has been reduced. Importance has been placed on ease of handling; this led to the rig and sail area reduction. There is also no sense in having a large performance rig which creates a lot of windage when motoring. A compromise must be struck when marrying two worlds together with a design concept such as this. Click to expand...

Richard Woods Woods Designs

Fast motor sailor catamarans are not a new idea. Pat Patterson launched his Star Twins 43 in 1992 and then sailed it almost round the world - much of it in the Roaring Forties. It cruises at 15 knots with twin 100hp Yanmars. I've spent several weeks on it, it's huge, comfortable boat. In 1987 we built a modified Banshee, extended to 37ft. With twin 90hp it would tow a waterskier at 22 knots. It did 16knots with one 90hp. I sailed it at 19 knots Richard Woods of Woods Designs www.sailingcatamarans.com

Richard Woods said: ↑ Fast motor sailor catamarans are not a new idea. Pat Patterson launched his Star Twins 43 in 1992 and then sailed it almost round the world - much of it in the Roaring Forties. It cruises at 15 knots with twin 100hp Yanmars. I've spent several weeks on it, it's huge, comfortable boat. In 1987 we built a modified Banshee, extended to 37ft. With twin 90hp it would tow a waterskier at 22 knots. It did 16knots with one 90hp. I sailed it at 19 knots Richard Woods of Woods Designs www.sailingcatamarans.com Click to expand...

The Banshee was a standard hull because that is what the owner wanted, or rather he didn't want to pay for modifications. The Star Twins has a very flat run aft if I was to draw a motorsailer catamaran I would certainly have a deep flat aft section. In fact I'd probably have tilting aft sections, something like a very large trim tab. We did some test tanking on a model hull like that when I was a design student. Richard Woods

Richard Woods said: ↑ The Banshee was a standard hull because that is what the owner wanted, or rather he didn't want to pay for modifications. The Star Twins has a very flat run aft if I was to draw a motorsailer catamaran I would certainly have a deep flat aft section. In fact I'd probably have tilting aft sections, something like a very large trim tab. We did some test tanking on a model hull like that when I was a design student. Richard Woods Click to expand...

Mr Efficiency Senior Member

Why are you going to get slamming at more than 8 knots ?

Mr Efficiency said: ↑ Why are you going to get slamming at more than 8 knots ? Click to expand...

But the boat in question will have a good clearance under it, I don't see why it will be slamming

Mr Efficiency said: ↑ But the boat in question will have a good clearance under it, I don't see why it will be slamming Click to expand...

L/B ratio given as 13:1, so under 3 feet, I can't see the shape so well.

Mr Efficiency said: ↑ L/B ratio given as 13:1, so under 3 feet, I can't see the shape so well. Click to expand...

With that L/B ratio it will slip through the water at the 14 knots OK, but you can see it is a compromise job between the two propulsive modes, and looks more tilted to the sail side of the equation really. Hard to see it not pitching pretty good at some headings under power. Is it possible to design a boat where the line of propulsion is so different in each mode, and still have a satisfactory result ?

Mr Efficiency said: ↑ With that L/B ratio it will slip through the water at the 14 knots OK, but you can see it is a compromise job between the two propulsive modes, and looks more tilted to the sail side of the equation really. Hard to see it not pitching pretty good at some headings under power. Is it possible to design a boat where the line of propulsion is so different in each mode, and still have a satisfactory result ? Click to expand...

Just got an email Update: the complete kit for the hull/superstructure/furniture inc all materials and glues in container ready for shipping is Aus$108k, or about £60k, plus shipping. 6 weeks assembly from the precut parts and moulded hull bottom and topsides.....not sure if that's for one person or more. Seems like good value.

philSweet Senior Member

What strikes me as off is the "berths- three queen cabins" and displacement - <13000 pounds. That just doesn't jibe with me. I think cruising weight would be at least as heavy as my Catalina 38 at 17 or 18k. In which case it will be an 8 knot boat anyway. If you only allow 500# of stuff to come aboard, what do you need three cabins for? I helped out on an Alliaura 50 that they did a nice job of squeezing 3 queen cabins into, but it weighed 56000 pounds. Never got it over 5 knots, though. It also had twin 75's.

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Schionning Arrow 1360

Duet : a Schionning Arrow 1360 has now SOLD High performance cruising catamaran.

See the Owner’s Walk Through video below.

Electric Oceanvolt engines Launched in 2017 by Northstar Yachts of South Africa.

This Schionning Arrow 1360 has accommodation for 6 guests in 3 cabins. Two double cabins and one twin room, and two heads.

Price: €699,000 Tax Not Paid (US$ 823,911)

Owners comment’s:

I owned a Catana 431 Catamaran for 10 years. During that time, I learned a lot about performance cruising Cats with daggerboards. A sailor friend took me for a spin on his home-built Schionning Cat (an old model) one day and I was impressed with the overall performance of that design. The Catana was capable of 10 – 15 knots but was very rough in a seaway and exhibited a lot of “hobby horsing” and slamming.

Although it was a nice platform for live-aboard, the design limits restricted its performance in light air (fat hulls) and although it would go to weather it beat up the crew a lot. 14 knots on that boat felt like you were pushing it to almost fall apart – shaking and vibrating like crazy. (by contrast 17 knots on Duet is a walk in the park)

Performance in Waves After I sold it I went on a quest to find a design that had a better behaviour in a seaway, would go to weather and had good light wind performance, but would also be nice to live aboard.

I looked at all the Cat designs.. attending the Multihull boat show in France and testing designs like Outremer, Slyder, FP, Leopard, etc. Perhaps the Outremer had the best performance, but unless you bought a large one (the 45 does not have nice accommodation in my view) my goal was not possible.

Close to Wind Speed This lead me back to the Schionnings and I was able to achieve my goals with the Arrow 1360. This is easily proved with a test sail in right conditions. Close to wind speed in most conditions from 10 knots true (for example, we routinely do 8.5 to 9 knots in 10-11 knots true).

No hobby horsing and very stable in rough conditions. The stability index is way better than a Catana, making Duet a safe, fast and comfortable cruising platform.

A Top Compromise across Price, Performance, Comfort She is fast, comfortable and easy to handle. The common wisdom in a Catamaran is that you can have two out of three things: Price, Performance, Comfort. With Duet, I believe you have all three.

The history of the boat is that it went under a lot of improvements once it was launched and really, in all practicality wasn’t finished until 2018. It was then stored in Cape Town until it was shipped to the Med.

Specifications Beam: 24′ 1” Hull Material: CompositeMax Draft: 3′ 11” Double Berths: 2 Cabins: 3 Heads: 2

Dimensions, Tanks LOA – 13.6m Beam – 7.59m Draft – 1.2 m Air draft – 19.5m Fuel volume (total) – 280 Litre Number of fuel tanks – 1 Water volume (total) – 400 Litre Waste volume (total) – 80 Litres Number of waste tanks – 2

Engines Engine make and model – 2x Oceanvolt AX-10 Engine Hp – Total Electric Power is 20 KW Engine year – 2016 Drive type – Shaft Drive Prop type – (2) Gori 3 Blade Generator make/ model – Fischer Panda AGT-DC 10000-48volt PMS Generator KVA – 10KW Generator hours – 500

Construction Construction material – Constructed to CE Standards and Certified with CE Number. Epoxy / Corecell infusion with extensive Carbon Fibre layup (Mast, Boom, Forward Beam, Daggerboards, Rudders, Wheels.)

Covers And Canvas Hard Bimini Cockpit enclosure cover Lazy bag

Rig And Rigging Sloop Fractional Standing rigging type – Fibre Running rigging type – Dynema Furling headsail – North Sails Jib on Schaefer Furler Furling downwind sails – North Sails Code 0 on Carver continuous furler

Sails Main – North Square Top Genoa – North Asymmetric spinnaker – North Storm sails – North orange storm sail on removable stay

Deck Gear Electric anchor windlass Windlass make/ model – Vetus Maxwell HRC-8 Wired remote control (windlass)

Winches Antal Electric XT52 ELH (x 2) Antal Manual 48 (x 2) Antal Manual 46 (x 1)

Anchor – Main is an Ultra (27KG) and Mantus (85lb) spare Anchor material – Stainless and Steel Anchor weight – 27KG

Chain material – Hi tension 8 mm Chain length – 250 ft Warp length – 100 ft

Adjustable helms – inboard (out of the elements) or outboard steering (a great feature when sailing). The steps also function as seats, so it is quite comfortable when helming during sail.

Mechanical Air conditioning Heating – reverse AC Water maker – RO Cruise Seamaker 48v, 33 Gal / Hr.

Accommodation 3 Cabins No. of Double beds – 2 No. of Twin cabins – 1

Convertible saloon table to bunk.

Holding tank – 2 Electric toilet – Vetus Electric Heads

Interior wood finish type – Bamboo LED interior lighting Navigation table – Yes

Owners hull to Starboard Bow locker with deck access Office/studio with emergency hatch Queen berth Companion way with pantry Head with large counter, basin and washing machine hidden behind sliding doors to one side and vanity to the other Large shower aft with access to mechanical area (aft), and hatches to access water maker controls Mechanical room with large deck hatch access

Guest hull, Port Hull Bow locker with deck access Large shower with emergency hatch and overhead hatch Vanity/sink area with access to Air Conditioning unit inboard and broom closet outboard Queen berth Central head with small sink (shared between cabins and also acts as a day head) Twin cabin aft with access to mechanical area (hot water, electric drives and controllers

Navigation Equipment Chartplotter – B&G Radar – B&G 4G VHF – B&G with Handheld AIS – B&G send and receive Autopilot – B&G Wind instrument – B&G Speed/ Log/ Depth instrument – Aiphone Multi Navigation lights – LED Compass Radio – Fusion Saloon speakers Cockpit speakers

Safety Equipment Lifejackets – 10 Liferaft – 6 Person Flares EPIRB Personal AIS – 2 Horseshoe – 2 Danbuoy MOB Recovery system 1st Aid kit Electric bilge pump – two Manual bilge pump – two

Tender And Mooring Tender – AB 9.5 UL with forward locker Outboard – Mercury 15 Hp 2 stroke Fenders – 8 Mooring lines – 8 Boat hook

Recent Maintenance All painted surfaces have been recently cleaned and polished, Oil changes are done every 100 hrs, regular service on all mechanicals, etc.

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Schionning Designs International Pty Ltd Leaders in Multihull Design and Kit Development.

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09-02-2010, 10:29
	like Schionning, Fusion, Oceanic or Spirited? If I read the various sites, making the is not such an issue, but I would imagine the and all the fitting out must be an enormous taks. I would imagine that's the reason why several half built projects are . Is it really that hard????? I look forward reading some experiences.

09-02-2010, 11:01
Boat: Farrier f27	. Depending on the quality level you desire. I assume the end goal is to sail and not just to experience the build. I have not built but have come close in the past (actually rented space and ordered material) for a tri, but ended up the same design I was going to build. At present I have plans for another and am looking for place to build - unless another one shows up of the design I want! You might want to give a hard look at the costs of building vs a used cat. There's a glut of them (charter cats) and the sales prices should be dropping even more than the asking prices. That is if the designs available for you.

09-02-2010, 11:27
Boat: 50' steel canal and river cruiser	, car, plane etc. Thousands of hours are needed. 40 hours per week for 12 months = 2000 hours. If your in a relationship, have and a demanding job, it takes years and thats a main reason most people quit. If you took the hours you spend building and get a paid job, then spend that buying the , it will save your marriage AND get you sailing years sooner. Many aircraft builders are more in love with the build than the flying. Some drag their heels when nearing completion as they fear the end of the and some launch straight into the next. Its a prison sentance. Take it from one who knows !!!! Jodel D18, KR2, Avid, Kitfox, Minimax, .....been involved in them all and more besides. My D18 build buddy had a 36' pair of hulls in his back yard, never finished. Every year the tarps would fill with , split and the hulls would fill and spread the cradles so he had to out the thousands of gallons. The rotted and all his work went down the drain. In the same yard were 3 Porches awaiting strip down and . He had enough aircraft sourced from aerojumbles and boot sales to make 3 more. Some dream and some get out there and actually do the flying and sailing.

09-02-2010, 12:01
Boat: Outremer 5X	is 6-9 months. Depending on labor costs, you may even be able to build a for the cost of a used one, with the advantage of having the fun and satisfaction of the building process.

09-02-2010, 12:45
Boat: Farrier f27	. After the earthquake I was looking at the work force there and they do have a of boatbuilders, with in the state it's in now I don't think it would work but shortly in 6 months or a year when basic infrastructure is in place Haiti would have the labor force and they definitely need the work.

09-02-2010, 12:49
Boat: self design cat in progress	? Worked on a Schionning Cosmos.. strip plank. Good boat, lottsa hours. Not a kit. Have looked over a spirited in progress and it is pretty busy. Many little bits and pieces that are structural. The build system is well thought out though. The sheer go in last so there is better access to the job for example. The big objection I have with the kits is the added cost. I hear designers get a 10% commission (kickback would be a better word) from the balsa panel . Thats about $6000-$7000 out of pocket and I don't like the stuff but now I know why the designers love it! I think the kits make it less intimidating for a to start but once you get stuck into it, they may not be that much of an advantage. I'm building a 35 foot cat I drew myself using any kind of good material I can get . Left overs and abandon projects and anything FGI has on special. Mostly ply with foam and polycore. I am looking at coming in at $50K or less. If you want fast and easy and , build a 30 footer fast and just over $20K and you can buy the plans for $135. But if you do build from a kit I think Schionning makes a good boat with good resale value.

09-02-2010, 12:50
Boat: Outremer 5X	. makes it really tough to adequately supervise the work yourself, so you would have to give the to a local boat building shop. That said, is an excellent choice for low cost, good quality work.

09-02-2010, 13:06
Boat: 1982 Oday 34	finished. Life gets busy. You've got work, , wives/girlfriends, holidays, home , car , fun opportunities, etc. all competing for time against the project. My brother suddenly got offered a chance to get his Masters six months into the project. That ate up almost a year of progress. I bought a project boat last July and tackled it hard every weekend through October. Then I didn't get to touch it again until mid-January. I'm back on track for now, but my girlfriend is getting pretty irritated that she only gets to see me on the weekends and now that's down to only one day a weekend. Of course, you try to get girlfriends/wives involved, but there's only so much they can do, and they get bored with it. Then, on top of all that, you have to take into account the fact that you'll just get burned out and need to take occasional breaks from the project. Of course, there's some guys that can just churn out the work. One of the guys in the Cobra club spent two days completely unpacking every box of the kit and organized and labeled the hundreds of bolts and . Then he put the entire thing together and had it running in four days. So no, the kits aren't that complicated. It's making sure you've got the time for the kits that is so hard for most people. My biggest if you're going to build a kit is have a place to build it that is not costing you extra rent. That way you're not just throwing money away for every month there's no progress.

09-02-2010, 13:15
	. Because I now have the kind of boat you really can't buy off a production line, which are predominantly built for work.

09-02-2010, 13:22
Boat: self design cat in progress	. There is value in knowing what you have under your feet instead of what you are told is under your feet.

09-02-2010, 13:23
Boat: Shuttleworth 31	project - that unless you specifically WANT to experience the build part then steer well clear.

09-02-2010, 13:28
Boat: self design cat in progress

09-02-2010, 13:34
	. It will be our home for >5 years, so it has to be right. We will allow space for two guests, but only just. I am quite attracted to the Fusion 40 actually. But, I have calculated I would still cost me about 250.000 euros to get a world cruiser built. And than I am not counting my own hours ofcourse. But, what also attracts me about self building, is that you know your boat inside out. Which might be rather usefull when you have to fix something in some far and place.

09-02-2010, 13:36
	up substantially, and if you have to travel to the project, it will be more difficult ans time consuming. Still can be done though, I know people who have done and some who still are doing it. Re kits - if you have the , and the boat suits, then IMO the Fusion is far better value than say, a Spirited. You now get a skilled worker with the kit, and I've heard they are now getting those things locked up in under a month! A spirited kit costs almost as much as a Fusion, around $125k versus $155k, but takes about as long as my boat did to build. (My kit costs around $70k these days, including plans.) Another very quick build would be: IMO the best value kits are still Bob Oram's.

09-02-2010, 13:44

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